This is a September 2, 2020 update to the earlier August 25, 2020 post that appears below.
UPDATE
I believe that academic dialogue is important and can be fruitful. There are many scholars who are academically interested in the Book of Abraham, its translation, and its content. Some scholars have even made such study their life’s work. (This is not unusual in many specialized subject areas.)
Regardless of the area of study, all scholars approach any topic with their own sets of existing beliefs. It is impossible for a scholar to be a “blank slate” when it comes to any field of study. It is no surprise that my existing beliefs are consistent with what I view as the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. It is likewise no surprise that others, including Professor Ritner, start with a set of beliefs that preclude divine involvement in the work of Joseph Smith.
With that in mind and because I am truly interested in academic dialogue about the Book of Abraham, before I posted any kind of response online, I personally contacted Professor Ritner. I suggested that we work together on creating an academic volume on the subject. I suggested possible guidelines for doing so, possible academic venues, possible editors, and even a potential table of contents. I modeled it after volumes on contested issues that have been successfully done in academia elsewhere. The goal would be to have a balanced approach observing the highest academic rigor and tone, creating a dialogue with each other rather than having parties who speak past each other. If done correctly, I believe that such an approach can lead to real progress.
Dr. Ritner graciously declined, citing his current health circumstances. This is very understandable. I have responded, letting him know that I am open to other options as long as we can find something that would adhere to appropriate academic standards. I have also offered to fly to Chicago, once pandemic conditions have stabilized, to discuss this matter with him.
Finally, I hope that no one will speculate about Professor Ritner’s reasons for declining my invitation. The best thing for all of us is that others do not presume they know what either his or my intentions are, and that we are both given a reasonable space to work towards something together in the midst of his difficult circumstances. I believe it is possible to make true academic progress in this matter, and will continue to work towards making that happen.
Kerry Muhlestein, September 2, 2020
We live in an era of online communications. If you want to reach large numbers of people in quick fashion, then online videos, blogs, memes, and podcasts have become the tool of the moment. These tools are effective at conveying information in an attractive and user-friendly format and in a way that can reach across the globe in mere minutes. Moreover, they are quite convenient for the consumer, which further helps spread the message. They certainly have their place, and do some things very well.
If these online communications have a downside, it is ensuring the accuracy of the information they convey. Many are accurate, many are not, and it is difficult to tell which is which. Like news sound bites, such media often seem to lend themselves to simplistic and over-reduced explanations that frequently misrepresent complex matters. Further, somehow they often easily fall into a low level of discourse. This is not true of all them, it really depends on the hosts and forums. Yet too often this is exactly what happens. Some who engage in these electronic venues work very hard to try to provide accurate information at an honorable level of rhetoric, but the forum does not require it and thus many are extremely poor at ensuring a high academic quality of information and sometimes make little to no effort at maintaining the kind of respectful and noble level of discourse that is supposed to be the hallmark of the academic world. Nowhere has this been more apparent than in some podcasts that have recently been released in various venues about the Book of Abraham.
Please do not mistake my meaning. I have personally participated in creating videos and doing podcasts. I respond to very few of the requests I get to do such things because of the very few items noted above. Yet I also realize their potential to reach different audiences, and the way some institutions engage in them I find to be appropriate, helpful, and honorable. I will probably continue to participate in such venues on some occasions in the future. When I do participate, I try to do all I can to make sure that the platform will encourage and maintain an appropriate kind of accurate discourse.
One of the problems with podcasts, videos and blogs is that there is no intrinsic mechanism for ensuring appropriate tone or accuracy. It is up to each creator as to whether they will take steps to ensure this or not, and many don’t. An additional downfall of these media is that there is also no truly appropriate and effective way to respond to inaccurate or unbecoming podcasts or blogs that already exist. Any similar response, no matter how high the quality, quickly takes on the semblance of a tit-for-tat kind of exchange, and makes the job of the audience who is trying to discern truth from error all the more bewildering. Even a response that is determined to maintain a high level of discourse, if it is going to respond to a low level, somehow takes on the appearance of having sunk to that lower level. Moreover, responses always appear to be a level lower, even when they are not. As in athletics, it is often the responder to an unsportsmanlike foul that will receive the flag.
And yet, I have a concern for the audience. Those who are honestly trying to find truth and avoid error will not know how or where to find truth if only error has been presented to them. Many people will hold to their own views no matter what they encounter, but some really are trying to see their way through the myriad smoke and mirrors they are being presented with. For their sakes it seems worth presenting another side, or at least making an attempt to fan away some of the smoke.
I also have a great desire to come to greater clarity and understanding of the Book of Abraham. There is much to learn, and I believe that if we do it the right way, we can make real advances. It is not always easy to take a mess and turn it into something worthwhile. Yet in this case I think it is worth the effort, and I am optimistic that if many parties are willing, together we can find success.
For example, some of the podcasts have addressed ancient Egyptian aspects of the Facsimiles in the Book of Abraham. A lot of good scholarship has been exhibited when discussing the Egyptological interpretations of those drawings, and I find that discussion to be fruitful. Yet the valid data is then applied to the topic at hand based on a misunderstanding of what Latter-day Saint scholars believe or have said. In such a case we end up with good data and problematic application of it. This must be at least partially the fault of Latter-day Saint scholars. Apparently we need to do a better job of communicating what we think about these things. Hopefully a dialogue can be struck where we learn from one another rather than talk past one another. Until then, online communications will inevitably present somewhat meaningless sides of a discussion on different trajectories. Misrepresentations of points of view, even unintentionally, can only lead to misinformation.
Further, presumably because of the difficulty of delving into complex matters in simple forums, often only partial information is conveyed. This, combined with the problems outlined in the previous paragraph, leads to discussion that can be misleading for the audience, and yet seems so convincing.
I will use one example. In one recent podcast Joseph Smith was attacked for what the guest felt was an inaccurate reconstruction of a missing part of a drawing on a papyrus. The debated point is whether a now-missing depiction of a head should have been of a human head or the head of the Egyptian god Anubis. If that part of the papyrus were already missing, then Joseph Smith seems to have directed the engraver of the facsimile to depict the figure with a human head, although we cannot be positive even on that point. In the podcast it was stated that this is not how such depictions were drawn, and thus Joseph Smith was inaccurate.
At the same time there were several things which were not stated in the podcast. For example, the glue marks suggest that the part of the drawing in question, which is missing now, was not always missing. It is quite possible, perhaps even probable, that it was actually in place when Joseph Smith first had the papyri, and that the facsimile was based on what he had actually seen at one point. Further, we cannot tell the extent to which Reuben Hedlock, the artist, was acting on Joseph Smith’s instruction and how much was his own initiative.
Further, in the same podcast it was pointed out that there are a number of unique features about this particular drawing (not all of which the guest or host pointed out). It seems logically inconsistent to dictate that one unknown part of the papyrus must conform to known drawings when other known parts of the papyrus clearly do not. In fact, a good scholarly treatment of this vignette should admit that there are enough unusual things about it that we cannot honestly claim that we fully understand what is going on with it.
Additionally, whether originally the drawing depicted Anubis’s jackal head or the head of a human, it would have been understood that the role being performed would have been performed by a priest. Perhaps it was a priest representing Anubis, but a priest nonetheless. Thus, if that piece of papyrus were missing when Joseph Smith first acquired it, and if he said it should be reconstructed to depict a priest, such a reconstruction would be accurate to the meaning of the drawing, which would be remarkable in and of itself.
Moreover, we do not know if Joseph Smith was intending to provide us with what this would have been like anciently, or if he was trying to provide us with what we should derive from it spiritually in our day. We just don’t have enough data to know if the Prophet engaged in reconstructing this depiction, and if he did, why he did so or the relationship between their original context and their new one. Nor do we know enough about the intent of the original creators of the depiction. There is too little data to reach any firm conclusions on this point.
Thus, while on the podcast, it was spoken of as if this were a simple, open-and-shut case, even the brief and simplistic treatment provided here should be enough to demonstrate that this issue is not so simple, and it is anything but closed. I believe it misrepresents the complexity and richness of the vignette and the possible ways Joseph Smith interacts with it. This kind of thing happens again and again in these forums, and the reader needs to be aware that they are not being given the whole picture. This is a shame, because an exciting and beautiful discourse could be had about this subject if the involved parties were willing to really engage. We could all have our understanding expanded. Instead, what is currently happening is misleading for listeners.
Again, this is the inherent flaw in the kind of podcasts that have been produced of late. It is not a forum that lends itself to truly complex matters, and delving into the ancient world and modern revelation is inevitably a complex undertaking. This is all the more so when all the participants are bent on coming to the same conclusion. Thus, one should be very, very careful about how much stock should be put in a communication that is taking place in a medium that is not capable of handling the nature of the communication.
As a result of this and other issues, many of the online communications about the Book of Abraham have been deeply problematic. For my own research purposes I have listed dozens of examples of places where incorrect information, unstated incorrect assumptions, mischaracterization of arguments, and withholding of information or evidence was rampant. I have also listed many places where participants said incorrect things about colleagues. These are things that I personally know were just wrong. As someone with in-depth knowledge about the issues and the people, I found the miscommunications and misinformation that were in these podcasts to be disappointing. Yet I do not want to turn this essay into something problematic either. So I will instead put my efforts into creating the kind of careful, systematic writing that can advance the field. I will just push forward in good research. For those who are patient, such good research will carry us through.
Many of the arguments in these online forums can sound very convincing. Guests and hosts can create an online echo chamber in which they self-reinforce circular arguments, unnoticed assumptions, and mischaracterization of others’ arguments, and then self-congratulate one another on their conclusions in a way that seems so very convincing. To the trained and informed observer, many of the arguments that the involved parties paint as being so convincing, are instead immediately obviously deeply problematic. To be fair, some reasonable and important points have also been raised, and if we were to change the discourse so that we conduct the discussion according to high academic standards in an academic venue, I believe that together we could make true scholarly progress. Yet most points raised online have been overly full of intellectual fallacies, mischaracterization of the issues, bad underlying assumptions, and circular arguments.
I anticipate that as time goes on these will be discussed in an appropriate and reasonable fashion. This will happen over the course of time, and for some audiences it is crucial that they know now that the self-congratulatory echo chambers they may have encountered are not all that they seem.
Further, a sad aspect of these online communications has been the efforts to just be dismissive of those who hold opposing points of view. Those who say that scholars such as myself or John Gee are pseudo-Egyptologists or only have a patina of scholarship have either completely failed to do their homework, or have willingly misconstrued the truth, presumably to help further their agendas. By my own quick, rough count, John Gee has edited three academic books, has served as the editor for a respected Egyptological journal, has published over twenty peer-reviewed articles in respected Egyptological or Ancient Near Eastern journals, many of which are truly top tier, has published twelve articles in peer reviewed and highly respected academic conference proceedings, and eleven peer reviewed articles as chapters in respected academic books. He has authored many Egyptological entries for various academic encyclopedias. He has also been asked to serve in various capacities for several respected academic and Egyptological organizations. For example, he was the only North American affiliate of the Totenbuchprojekt (Book of the Dead project) at the University of Bonn. He was a visiting scholar at the University of Heidelberg. He has given dozens and dozens of lectures at academic Egyptological conferences. This is all without saying anything about the other areas he researches and publishes in. In short, he is a very productive and respected scholar. To call him a pseudo-Egyptologist or say he has only a patina of scholarship is very incorrect. I do not wish to speculate as to why such knowingly inaccurate statements were made, but I find them shockingly disingenuous.
I do not wish to go through a similar litany for myself. It is not my place to do so. My profile is on Academia.edu for those who wish to see that I too am an active and participating Egyptologist. One cannot be intellectually honest and informed and describe my scholarship the way these online forums have attempted to do so. It just makes the statements seem silly to those who are informed. It is an example of the kind of low-level discourse that scholars avoid because they are trying to truly deal with arguments, not win them at the cost of truth.
I wish to reemphasize that I am not saying that there is nothing of value in these podcasts, nor that every idea raised in them should be ignored. Rather it is to say that those things that are of value should be stated in an appropriate academic venue, where an appropriate response could be made. I trust that in the days to come, many of the reasonable issues that have been raised about the Book of Abraham will be dealt with in proper academic fashion. In fact, I have gained a number of insights as I have listened to these podcasts. Some of them have come as the result of good research. While I often do not agree with how the data has been interpreted, and I have identified incorrect assumptions that have led to these misinterpretations, nonetheless some of the accurate information and accurate conclusions have helped me learn and come to my own new conclusions and better understandings.
Yet as we think of these podcasts and attempting to turn them into something that is trustworthy and useful, we must keep in mind that high-level academic discourse is slow. It requires detailed and painstaking research, careful writing, review and revision, then editorial and peer review, further revision, further review, editing, typesetting, more review, and finally publication. Then others can respond in kind. And that is in a process where no problems are encountered. The review process hopefully helps identify bad assumptions, misinterpretations, etc., though it is not perfect at doing so. It is exactly this lengthy process which raises the chances that the information is viewed by many qualified individuals as being methodologically sound, and that unseemly discourse is avoided. It does not ensure that everything meets the highest standards, and not all publications go through this full process. Further, mistakes will inevitably creep in. Still, this process greatly increases the chances of good scholarship delivered in suitable rhetoric. It also allows for proper academic rebuttals that can help correct mistakes and advance knowledge appropriately.
This means that reliable responses to new arguments will be slow in coming. I can only ask that those who really want to know the truth will be patient as they wait for such response and dialogue. In the meantime, hopefully this essay will assure them that it is worth wading through true research which has already been published on both sides, and waiting patiently for further worthwhile research in the future. I believe that a lot of good scholarship has been produced in the last decade or more, and that more is on the horizon. I also believe that even parties with diametrically opposed points of view can have a measured, honorable, and productive dialogue that will benefit both groups if they maintain high rhetoric. I hope that we can turn the recent spate of online information into a real dialogue. I am convinced that I can learn from those who have different viewpoints from mine. I am equally convinced that if they will really take my research seriously that it can aid them in their desires for accurate information. Done correctly, this can be a scholarly dialogue that moves us forward in a worthwhile way.
In the meantime, I feel that the truth-seeking audience should know that there are many things that have been said about scholars, their methods, their motives, and their abilities that I believe are wildly inaccurate. In future days I will be seeking for the appropriate venue and tone to address such matters. Similarly, many will seek for fitting venues for productive discussions regarding both the good ideas and the faulty assumptions and misinformation that has been conveyed. The hope is that this can take place in a way that is helpful for all involved to really come to clarity.
In connection with this, may I express my hope for how such things will be done in the future? Let us try to address these issues in a scholarly and noble way. Let us avoid trying to cloud the issues by attacking people, and may we especially be honest and fair in what we say about people. Let us use a high register of rhetoric and discourse. Let us attempt to publicly identify our assumptions and address them. Let us try to honestly listen to the scholarly communications of each other with open minds. Let us accurately represent the arguments of others. And then let us discourse with each other in a way that can help us all advance our state of understanding. There are ways to do this, and I hope we will. I believe we have nothing to fear, and nothing to hide. True academic discourse can move us forward.
To the lay audience, I urge both patience and wisdom. The sound and fury of the online discourse of recent days typically yields only froth. In each there are real currents that can move us forward, but those currents are almost completely covered by a foamy lather that has only air and no substance in it. I assure you that over time I and others will carefully pick our way through the much ado that has been made and find the real nuggets that are worth moving forward in a more appropriate, scholarly and effective way. In the meantime, a great deal of worthwhile research has already been done. Please take advantage of that which has hitherto been done well, and be wary of discourse which easily catches attention but does not meet the high standards to which we should adhere.
The voice of reason contrasted with the sound of ax grinding. I think it’s not too hard to tell the difference. Well written.
The clear evidence is that there are lots of ways that the current image may have come to be. The desire to malign Joseph Smith and to not deal with the actual image shows how much some scholars fail to actual engage what they have instead of what they are used to.
Dr. Muhlestein I quote part of your article:
“I will use one example. In one recent podcast Joseph Smith was attacked for what the guest felt was an inaccurate reconstruction of a missing part of a drawing on a papyrus. The debated point is whether a now-missing depiction of a head should have been of a human head or the head of the Egyptian god Anubis. If that part of the papyrus were already missing, then Joseph Smith seems to have directed the engraver of the facsimile to depict the figure with a human head, although we cannot be positive even on that point. In the podcast it was stated that this is not how such depictions were drawn, and thus Joseph Smith was inaccurate.”
It all the artifacts, art, carvings, papyrus, or anything else showing a black priest with a white human head with a knife sacrificing someone? Anything to support your claim, any science or facts?
Thank you!
Dr. Muhlestein,
First, thank you for being brave enough to respond to your critics. Also, congrats on getting so much attention for your essay! I sincerely mean this in the best way. It shows that what you say has weight. I’m assuming it’s a response to the recent mormonstories.org interview with Dr. Ritner.
Question: do you have any statements of positivity regarding your claims, not just statements of plausibility?
For example, you mention that the original Facsimile #1 may have had the image of a human head in the lacuna portion when Joseph Smith originally viewed it. Is that true, or is it not?
Tactics like this are frustrating to me. In the O.J. Simpson trial, the defense tried this tactic when they asked a law enforcement expert if it was plausible that the victims were killed using a technique called a “Columbian Necktie”, implying they were killed as part of a dispute with drug traffickers. It came off as a desperate attempt to foment doubt in the jurors’ minds. Was it a Columbian Necktie, or wasn’t it? They didn’t care, just so long as there was enough doubt to maintain the plausibility of their clients’ innocence, no matter how improbable.
Dr. Ritner came on the podcast and said “There was never any human head on this lacuna.” Point blank. Then, he proceeded to lay out the evidence. This is not being simplistic. It is being definitive. There is a difference, and Dr. Ritner and every other Egyptologist in the world seem to agree on this point with the same certitude that Dr. Ritner conveyed on the podcast.
So, what is it? Did the original papyrus have the head of a human on it? Are you even willing to say that it was more probable that it had a human head on it and lay out your case? Or are you just going to stick with “it could have”?
Thanks for listening.
The request which you put is an illustration of why the “gotcha” style so prevalent in podcast discussions is not satisfactory when it comes to questions of this magnitude.
Let’s look at what you request:
“For example, you mention that the original Facsimile #1 may have had the image of a human head in the lacuna portion when Joseph Smith originally viewed it. Is that true, or is it not?”
The fact of the matter is, the lacuna is there and the head, whatever shape it was, is not. Is it true that the head may have been a human head? Yes. Can we be certain from just the papyri? No. It’s a matter of ambiguity, as so much in the world of ancient history is.
“Dr. Ritner came on the podcast and said “There was never any human head on this lacuna.” Point blank. Then, he proceeded to lay out the evidence. This is not being simplistic. It is being definitive. There is a difference, and Dr. Ritner and every other Egyptologist in the world seem to agree on this point with the same certitude that Dr. Ritner conveyed on the podcast.”
On the contrary, treating Ritner’s response as gospel truth is being simplistic. A definitive statement is only valuable insofar as it is accurate. Was Ritner’s statement accurate? Let’s look at the arguments. Every argument he presents is an argument from precedent, ie we’ve seen this before in other places and it looked like this, so therefore this scene must have looked like this. The problem is that, when it comes to human behavior and products, the existence of a precedent does not mean that every instance of the object/phenomenon in the future must follow that precedent. Therefore, Ritner overreaches when he says that “there was never any human head on this lacuna.” It would be fine to say that the available precedents suggest that there would not have been a human head on the lacuna; but to declare definitively that there never was one is to step away from the protection of tight logical argumentation. Definitiveness is not always a virtue. Humility is.
Hoosier – I agree with Robert Ritner’s opinion on the historicity (or, non historicity) of the book of Abraham. I actually agree with pretty much all of Ritner’s opinions of JS, the book of mormon etc. But, I also agree with you that in his recent interview with John Dehlin Ritner overstepped his bounds as a scientist in many of his absolutist statements. Sadly so as I think this weakened him as a critic. I think he would have been better off simply stating the evidence. ie “The overwhelming evidence suggests that this lacunar recreation is inaccurate. There is nothing like that on record and it also contradicts all known surrounding evidence and understanding. I think it is much more likely this was a fabrication.” Rather he often said things like “This could never. ever. ever happen.” Well, none of us know what could never. ever. ever happen… do we?
Indeed, it weakened his credibility as a critic. That said, he didn’t have much of a choice. Latter-day Saints do not claim that the Book of Abraham was an ordinary Egyptian text – we think it’s extraordinary no matter what. The argument that “this reconstruction is unlikely” isn’t all that scary to someone who believes that God orchestrated the event. It only had to happen once. To leave ambiguity is to leave the Saints an open road.
Ritner went into this as an absolutist. He treated disagreements as deceptions and his own words as doctrine. My respect for his pronouncements has, consequently, diminished.
We are waiting for you and John Gee to meet and discuss with Doctor Ritner. Any time you two are ready, you have been invited.
Dr Muhlestein… correct me if I’m wrong. But isn’t the professional way for to share academic information through peer reviewed journals in your field? True evidences supporting the Book of Abraham would be incredible interest to anyone in the field of Egyptology. Where are your published findings in peer reviewed scientific journals? As I review your CV and that of Dr Gee, I see a lack of scientific publication in peer reviewed journals on the topic of the Book of Abraham. I see that there are publications on the Book of Abraham in religious related journals, but not the scientific journals. Are you having problems getting your Book of Abraham related articles published in scientific peer reviewed journals? If you are having problems does that not speak to the actual lack of true scientific basis for your Book of Abraham conclusions?
Of course you know that the podcasts you allude to would welcome your in-studio rebuttal any time.
I look forward to your voice there. You also know that recent podcasts are simply the latest recounting of the falsity of the Book of Abraham and that nearly everything stated on those podcasts comes from published papers that have been peer-reviewed and agreed by every Egyptologist (except those paid by the Church) to be accurate. Such papers, like this one https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/380315 (which can also be found linked from Dr. Ritner’s Individual Scholarship page at the Oriental Institute) are also pretty easy to read and understand, even for the “lay audiences” you admonish to “take advantage of [worthwhile research] which has hitherto been done well.”
In the Interpreter’s own “Scholarly Report on the Book of Abraham” it refers to Dr. Rittner’s podcasts as a good summary of arguments against the BoA. (Without providing a link to them as if fearful of people actually listening to them). Now here Dr. Muhlestein wants to disparage such podcasts. (Without naming Rittner’s directly as if he is afraid to call him out by ñame because he knows that this critique of sloppy web scholarship doesn’t actually apply to Dr. Rittner and to directly imply that it does would demonstrate the fallacy of this essay’s straw man argument). Are we to believe Muhlestein is talking about Kwaku instead of Dr. Rittner? You can’t have it both ways. Are Dr. Rittner’s podcasts reliable or not? Make up your minds!
Unbelievable… All Muhlstein could come back with was, “I don’t like podcasts”.
So incredibly sad. At this point Ritner has sent Gee and Muhlestein into a tail spin. Just a matter of time before all their apologetic work crashes with them…
I can not take the Dr. very seriously when he starts from a position of faith rather than study.
“I start out with an assumption that the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon, and anything else that we get from the restored gospel, is true,” he said. “Therefore, any evidence I find, I will try to fit into that paradigm. …There are those who will assume that it’s not true, and on these points we’ll just have to agree to disagree. But we will understand one another better when we understand how our beginning assumptions color the way we filter all of the evidence that we find.”
https://www.deseret.com/2014/8/12/20546321/byu-professor-speaks-on-unnoticed-assumptions-about-the-book-of-abraham#facsimile-1-from-the-book-of-abraham-was-on-papyrus-discovered-in-egypt
“To the lay audience, I urge both patience and wisdom. The sound and fury of the online discourse of recent days typically yields only froth. In each there are real currents that can move us forward, but those currents are almost completely covered by a foamy lather that has only air and no substance in it.”
Dr. Muhlestein, I do believe this is a valid attempt to steady the ark, but this discussion has been going on for a very long time.
The New York Times, Dec. 29, 1912: “Museum Walls Proclaim Fraud of Mormon Prophet” – Early analysis of Joseph Smith’s claim to translate an Egyptian papyrus into the Book of Abraham. Includes photos of original article.
On November 27, 1967, the Mormon-owned Deseret News announced:
–NEW YORK—A collection of pa[p]yrus manuscripts, long believed to have been destroyed in the Chicago fire of 1871, was presented to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints here Monday by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. . . .
How much more patience should I allow you to say different that what you have said?
How much more “substance” do you need from an world renowned expert, in a 10+ hour interview,for you to evaluate your opinion of evidence and facts vs. feelings?
Are there any others experts that agree with your position that are outside your faith?
I do look forward to your reply in time and I predict it will be the same wisdom that you have circulated the last few years.
If constructive dialogue is missing, then why not do a podcast with these people that you say misrepresent the point of view that you hold? I believe they have sent you an invitation to do so. Thoughtful listeners and readers value constructive discussion no matter their point of view.
Dr. Muhlestein:
You are obviously knowledgeable about all of the issues raised by Dr. Ritner in the Dehlin podcast. Perhaps you could go through issue by issue raised by Dr. Ritner and show where he is wrong or mistaken or misleading? I listened to the podcasts and they seemed to be pretty devastating for the book of abraham as coming from the papyri. The catalyst theory or perhaps a less rigorous response is the only one left, like E. Holland made when speaking with the BBC where he said in essence, I don’t know egyptian but what got put in the book of abraham was the word of God. Is the catalyst theory the only theory that remains plausible now that Dr. Ritner has shown that the papyri is definitely not the book of abraham?
I don’t know if many faithful who are paying attention to the Dehlin podcasts can wait the time you claim is needed for you to respond. It was pretty devastating and I think you and Dr. Gee should immediately go to work in responding point by point to what Dr. Ritner claims in order to stanch the bleeding.
Ritner is waiting for a kidney donor so one might be concerned about his health. Would he want to engage in a long debate.
I recently received a copy of a paper by Tamis Mekis who seems to know a lot about the hypocephalus. He is not talking about Joseph Smith. There are a number of hypocephalus that contain all the figures in Facsimile 2 especially figures 5 6 & 7. The figure that Smith s figure 7 “the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham in the form of a dove” Tamis writes “The next figure is Nehebkau who offers the wedjat-eye to the sitting deity before him” “Nehabkau is identiied with the Atum-serpent” In Hypocephalus ouvre N 352 the snake/dove has a penis. Another question one might ask when parts of the missing parts of Fac 2 were ‘restored’ who replaced with parts from another part o.f the Fac. EG 22 and 23 should have the god with multiple heads rather than like the two headed one above. “Some reflections on the funerary equipment of Paniuhor “
You are obviously referring to the interview with Robert Ritner (all parts a good 15 hours long or so) with John Dehlin. Dr. Ritner seemed gracious enough to me. I didn’t get the impression that it was an anti-mormon hack job. Perhaps you Dr. Muhlestein could be persuaded to provide your view point with equal time in the same venue?
Sincerely,
Rob Hastings
As I read it, Dr. Muhlstein just wrote a blog post about why a podcast would in all likelihood not be the forum that he would communicate his response and views. Perhaps instead of asking him to do something that he just explained that he would not likely do, you could specify the objections that you have to what he offers as the reasons for his planned approach.
You are right, Allan,
It is not my business to tell Dr. Muhlstein how to respond. I apologize.
Sincerely,
Rob Hastings
Rob,
I don’t believe that everything anti-Mormon is a hack job. As to Dr. Ritner’s anti-Mormon leanings, however, you may be interested in reading a review of some of his previous works: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1646&context=msr
Tom,
I read this article (which was written in 2004). It was 28 pages long and the only clear example I could find of Dr. Ritner’s anti-mormon leanings is this:
“In JNES, for example, Ritner begins his discussion by attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: “The anglicized Latin term ‘Egyptus’ is said to be Chaldean for ‘that which is forbidden’ in reference to the cursed race of Ham who are denied the ‘right of Priesthood’ ([Abraham] 1:23–27), a statement that served as the basis for Mormon racial discrimination until a ‘revelation’ during the modern era of civil rights legislation reversed the policy (but not the ‘scripture’) in 1978” (p. 161). Ritner’s choice of terms (racial discrimination) and his use of quotation marks (“revelation,” “scripture”) immediately reveal his cynicism towards the Church of Jesus Christ.”
OK.
Rob,
You may have read it, but your single takeaway seems lacking in understanding or nuance. I would invite you to read again, paying particular to cited evidences of anti-Mormonism on pages 359-63. These include Dr. Ritner’s use of sarcastic language, taking “cheap shots,” and his choice of pejorative adjectives and scare quotes.
These, taken in toto, indicate a general disdain on the part of Dr. Ritner for “anything Mormon” (so to speak). That disdain was evident in his earlier works (thus the 2004 book review I provided for your consideration). He can seem “gracious enough” (your comment) in a discussion with John Dehlin where he is not pressed, but that doesn’t change the fact that his works–including the podcasts–have at least anti-Mormon overtones. That is based on the choices that Dr. Ritner makes in both expressing his assertions concerning the Book of Abraham and describing those who do not agree with his assertions.
It should also be noted that his anti-Mormon tendencies can at least be inferred by some of Dr. Ritner’s chosen venues and projects. A quick look at his online vitae shows his participation in and cooperation with the Institute for Religious Research, an evangelical anti-Mormon ministry. These were not academic endeavors on his part, but they do support the efforts of more overt anti-Mormons than Dr. Ritner may, at first, appear.
Tom,
I read it. I concede that Dr. Ritner has an ego and pointed opinions as to what he regards as sloppy scholarship by others. He elaborated on the examples which the author of your referred essay pointed out during his interview with John Dehlin. I can’t help but wonder: The essay was 28 pages long and its author appeared to do a decent bit of research. However, his research did not appear to include actually talking with Dr. Ritner to get his side of the story.
By the way, is everyone agreed by now that Dr. Muehlestein’s essay is in direct response to Dr. Ritner?
“Moreover, we do not know if Joseph Smith was intending to provide us with what this would have been like anciently, or if he was trying to provide us with what we should derive from it spiritually in our day.”
Is that an admission that the Book of Abraham was not an actual translation of the text on the papyrus and that we don’t know ifJoseph thought he was translating or not?
Thank you Kerry Muhlestein. Very well put.
Michael, what exactly was very well put?
Thank for these timely and appropriate comments.